Posts by Cold Steel

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Cofty » Thousands of ex-Mormons all relate similar stories of cultish manipulation.

Thousands, eh? And you've waded through these thousands of poor ex-Mormons and have concluded they're all victims of a cultist religion? I'm impressed by the time and study you've put in on it, and your dedication to studying both sides and you're ability to ferret out the truth no matter where it resides.

Latter-day Saints believe that marriage in the Lord is for time and all eternity, and that families can be sealed together here and have those sealings in force in the world to come. So some guy starts reading anti-Mormon literature and comes to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was nothing more than a charlatan or a kook, and he decides to quit the church. Okay, he's got that right. No shunning there. He keeps his friends, but let's say he's married. He no longer wants to attend church, nor does he want his children to, either.

But his wife is devastated. She was married in the temple and she had certain expectations based on sacred and solemn covenants taken therein. She wants a family in the church and had every right to expect it. Yet he signs on to one of your ex-Mormon boards and complains that the church is interfering in his family and is influencing his wife (who wants the kids to continue going to church) and may even take her side in wanting a divorce.

Now is this cultish?? If so, you're seeing only his side. What if Joseph Smith wasn't a charlatan? His wife had the choice of marrying a non-Mormon and decided to marry a man determined in the faith. They made sacred vows together in holy places. Now the church is to blame for getting involved in a family matter that the wife wants. She doesn't want an ex-Mormon for a husband -- someone who sits on his ass on Sunday and can't baptize their children or administer priesthood blessings; who makes snide remarks about the church and undermines the faith of the children.

You can't put all these ex-Mo's in a basket and write them off as cult activity. So when he posts these same snide, often obscene criticisms with no one knowing the other side of the story, guys like you say, "Yeah, these cults are awful. They should just stay out of family matters." So go back and read my post again. You may SAY you're not a typical atheist, Cofty, but let someone say something religious that you don't agree with, and all you leave is are one- or two-sentence rejoinders of ridicule with absolutely no substance. This is typical for atheists, yet you say you're not of that stripe.

You're free to your own opinions, but I know what JW life and religion are like and I know what Mormon life and Protestant life are like, and I wouldn't tolerate JW cultisms for an instant. But I have considerable freedom to believe and say what I want in the Mormon faith. If women want to be ordained to the priesthood and they actively lobby the church for it, they shouldn't be surprised to be excommunicated. Is that cultish? All these things are moot, and you have to do quite a bit of stretching to turn the Mormon church into Jehovah's Witnesses.

Joe134cd » I could see it as been nothing but a good thing if there was more cross over between the 2 movements. Welcome to you cold steel and I always enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you for your comments, but as I tried to tell Cofty, I believe the two movements to be radically different. I don't mind civil discourse at all, but when people like me are banned from defending the church, often with no comment, there can be no meeting of the minds. This board is how it should be. Some of the obscenities and completely godless and rude remarks on the ex-Mo boards just make me want to have nothing to do with them. They're always happy to hear from folks like you. With me, not so much.

Check out this address:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSwccNZ_mmo&t=314s

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Cofty » If anybody wants to know the reality about the Watchtower they need to talk to ex-JWs. If anybody wants to know the truth about Mormonism they need to talk to ex-Mormons.

You believe that...really?

You actually believe that if one wishes to know the reality of atheism, one needs to talk to ex-atheists? That if one wants to know the truth about Darwinism, they need to talk to ex-Darwinists? That's a unique and disturbing methodology, Cofty, and I'm amazed you would espouse it. I have visited such sites, and I'm amazed you would find them a viable path to truth.

As a Latter-day Saint, I look at the background and scholastical degrees of our proponents, in and out of the church. Noted archeologists, geologists, anthropologists, historians, doctorates in ancient scripture, early Christianity and even in Islamic Studies, while many of our ex-Mormon websites, according to one of our “cult apologists” consists of (and I agree) “displays of bravado, strutting, believers’ arguments completely misunderstood and misrepresented, bold challenges hurled out to those who are barred from responding, and guffaws of triumph over enemies who are not permitted to reply. Dissent is rigidly excluded...even as its denizens criticize the Church for its supposed ‘repressiveness.’”

One of the ones you mentioned, says our apologist (Dr Daniel C. Peterson, and I agree), “is rife with personal abuse and bloodcurdling hostility, not uncommonly obscene, directed against people they don’t know and haven’t even met – against President Hinckley, Joseph Smith, the Brethren, the general membership of the Church, and even, somewhat obsessively, against [myself].

“Ordinary members of the Church – Morgbots or Morons or Sheeple, in the jargon of the board – are routinely stereotyped as insane, tyrannical, cheap, bigoted, ill-mannered, irrational, sexually repressed, stupid, greedy, foolish, rude, poor tippers, sick, brain-dead, and uncultured. There was once even a thread – and I’m not making this up – devoted to discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants. Posts frequently lament the stupidity and gullibility of Church leaders, neighbors, parents, spouses, siblings, and even offspring – who may be wholly unaware of the anonymous poster’s secret double life of contemptuous disbelief.”

I, myself, tried defending the church once or twice on two of these sites in 2006, and found myself barred from posting. Fortunately that doesn't happen here and active JWs are actually encouraged to defend their beliefs on this board if they can. But do you truly think I needed to land here to discover the truth about “The Truth”? No. I originally came here hoping to talk to believers -- people willing to answer questions about their beliefs. But then I began reading their stories and I decided to stick around because I found them fascinating and others even heat rending.

So use whatever methodology suits you to arrive at what you think is the truth. I've got the time and patience to wait and see who's right.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Diogenesister » Having got a request years later to give a talk at a KH he decided to go for it. Here is the result.

After the talk what happened? Did they realize their mistake immediately? Who was it who first realized that a subliminal message was being sent. I was amazed when they cut of his mic. Did they usher him into a back room?

It was masterfully done. Did he leave immediately or stick around?

Did they find his body in an ally, gutted out and a Red John smiley face painted in his blood on the bricks facing the front?

Did they keep him on the list?

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Cofty » I watched a documentary about mormon missionaries in the UK. It was the weirdest thing I have ever seen. You are a controlling, dehumanising cult every bit as much as the WT.

Well, Cofty, if you're right I haven't seen it. I'm familiar with every website you listed and I invite people to check out each one of them if they wish to hear incessant atheistic whining, but they'll learn little about the real church. Interestingly, I've met most of the people who have created and run those websites.

As for dehumanizing, I can't think of anything more dehunanizing as atheism and Darwinism, which you espouse. Check out these websites.

All About Creation and Darwinism

Darwinian Evolution

Creation Versus Evolution

Creation or Evolution: Does It Matter What You Believe?

See, anyone can post websites. But one thing I've noticed about your posts, Cofty, is that you'll write substantive posts on evolution and atheism, but on religion and matters you don't know much about, you resort to insults and name calling. You don't know anything about the Book of Mormon or how it came to be, but you do know how to use Google and you can copy links and find anti-Christian and anti-Mormon websites. Being familiar with the latter, I know that most of them were initiated by and maintained by a mere handful of malcontents. You're also completely ignorant of the websites written and maintained by active, believing members of the church who defend it, many of them with degrees in ancient scripture, history, geology, anthropology, archeology, theology and journalism, to name a few.

I know nothing about these sites I posted. I don't know who wrote them or what their qualifications are. I do know how the authors feel about evolution and that's all I need to know for the sake of this post. And that's all you did. As an atheist, you're sloppy in your research. I understand you got burned by the WTB&TS and that you reacted by rejecting all things having to do with God.

The websites you posted are exclusively anti-Mormon are the same ones you've posted before. You simply copy and paste. I didn't see one with a balanced view. (In fact, one was written by a friend of mine with whom I strongly disagree, but I could tell you stories on why he is like he is; but he's hardly upfront about them on his site.)

So the next time you run that list, why don't you add this one?

Evidences of the Mormon

It's all about objectivity. When it comes to what's important to you, you make it a point to be well read and as informative as you can. But when it comes to religion, Google is your only friend. You put anything you don't like into your cult basket and dismiss it with insults. Why? You got burned.

Again, with 45 years under my belt, I've NEVER had the slightest problem with my church lording itself over me in a dictatorial manner. I can have a beard, use any kind of after shave I want, dress however I wish and read whatever I want. We have none of the restrictions the JWs have, so why keep trying to dump us all into the same pot?

36

How ballroom dancing helped our exit

by Finally Left in

just wanted to say hello and thank you for all of your comments.

when i finally figured out this was not the truth it was nice to know i wasn't the only one - it was a surprise to learn how many there are.

february was my last month of service after 43 active years.

Cold Steel

Rebel8 » The reason many of these people joined in the first place is not because they think, "Ooooh! I've been dying to join a laughed-at cult so I can't celebrate holidays or receive blood transfusions!" No, they joined in spite of those rules because the love bombing was so effective. Take away the love and you are left with the doctrines.

Very well said, but it's kind of brilliant when you think about it. After the love bombing, they cut off the congregation and isolate them to prevent further loss. They also isolate the apostate to punish him and remove the bond of love from family and friends. It all works together to minimize damage to the organization while maximizing damage to the one leaving the organization.

The Society isn't stupid. They've had years to figure this out and work it out to their advantage, and they do it through controlling the flock and the wolf. And someone or some people have gone through a lot of trouble to figure all this out.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Cofty » Let's review - The JWs are a cult, just like the Mormons but different.

Yeah, a lot different! We don't have any of these weird controls the JWs have. The JWs are put in virtual cages.

Jesus also was a cult leader in his day, but he was no Charles Manson. He built his religion on the ancient Hebrew scriptures and did not control what his followers read or believed. "Search the scriptures," he said, "For they are they which testify of me."

I've lived in Mormonism for forty-five years and I've never felt trapped or controlled in any way, so my statement carries no irony. I can read what I want, go to my family's Methodist church when I'm visiting their home. I can give lectures, listen to lectures and argue the fine points of scripture in Sunday School lessons and can interpret them differently than church leaders.

In the Watchtower Society, man created the religion, we're told, then God chose them. In "Mormon" theology, God created the religion, making God the ACTIVE player, not the PASSIVE player. If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and He's always been the ACTIVE player, why would I choose a church where God is the PASSIVE player?

There are many differences, Cofty, and though the Mormons are arguably a cult, we've got far more in common with the cult of ancient Christianity than the Adventism of the Watchtower Society. (Pliny the elder always referred to ancient Christianity as a "cult" in his writings to the Romans, and it was always in the pejorative sense.) So I think we're in good company.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? No, it does not…“the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight."

Yes, but a one-time fireside is hardly engaging in scriptural research or debate. It's one guy giving one lecture to a group of mixed listeners. Would the statement above include book clubs, lectures on astronomy and other non-scriptural topics? Just talking about the history of the scriptures and not scriptural exegeses should be okay. I'd be out the door if a group tried to do that to me.

I'm astounded...and I didn't think that was possible.

38

Talk to my Dad about beards.

by LovingLifeNow in

jw
friends

so i spoke to my elder dad the other day, and he asked if i still am sporting a beard.

i said yes, then i said, "i thought the society said its ok to have a neat trimmed beard now?

" he said "no, no, no..if you read the article , it says in countries where it is accepted" so my response was "ummm, its pretty accepted here in america"..which he says "it reflects your spirituality" "if another wittness saw you, they would know you are weak"...i was like, "ok, i don't get it, and i follow christ/god, not men..." then he said in his hall" if a brother came in with a beard , he would not have privelages" then i just gave up, and tried to change the subject..ugggggggggg if these people would just listen to themselves , they would see the sillyness of there teachings...

Cold Steel

The Rebel » As he is on the hunt for an "awesome" woman, do you think I should respectfully tell him :-
a) Get a better quality wig.
b) Give up on the wig, and grow a beard.
c) Just be himself.

Give up the wig and be himself. When we see guys with toupees in a restaurant, my wife always says, quite innocently, "Is that a toupee?"

"I don't know," I reply. "Who cares...and stop staring!"

"I think it's a toupee. Look at his hairline. You can tell it's not real."

"Well, go ask him if it's so important to you."

"No, but would you at least look?"

"No. You want me to ask him?" and I begin to stand up.

"No! No, sit down!"

"Then stop looking. I'm not dressed for a fight, and they never punch a woman when they're rude. They always punch the guy! And if he comes over and starts pounding you, I'm probably going to join him."

So it's probably better not to wear one unless you pay a couple of grand for it. I think Jehovah would have a tougher time with toupees than beards. And I'm amazed at the number of faith healers with them. You'd think they wouldn't need them.

Ask your friend how he'd like someone at a bar or restaurant carrying on about whether he wore a toupee or not.

13

The fate of all of Jehovah's Witnesses

by Half banana in

i have just posted elsewhere that there is no destiny for a jw other than to be deluded or disappointed, perhaps deluded or disillusioned would be a better expression.

there is no such thing as armageddon, no such thing as everlasting life, paradise is a mirage of wish fulfillment.. a friend of mine who is nominally a jw but who does not believe a word of it, told me about the dying words of another friend's father.

this man had been a lifelong stalwart jw and reared an exemplary jw dynasty but as he died he told his super zealous son that it (the jw religion) has got it all wrong.. ok, it's a social club for the majority of witnesses and an identity for those without self worth or clear goals in life, they will swallow the inconsistencies and biblical absurdities because it is in their community interests to conform.

Cold Steel

There is no such thing as Armageddon, no such thing as everlasting life, paradise is a mirage of wish fulfillment.

There's really no way of ascertaining this. Based on what's been prophesied and what is happening in Israel and Turkey (Magog), and the resurgence of the move to create a new Caliphate, I can see the winds shifting in fulfillment of Armageddon (Ezekiel 38-39). Islamic eschatology dictates a decisive move on Jerusalem, as the prophets have foretold. But you're correct that the JW idea of Armageddon is a myth. The GB has completely misread the prophecies.

A friend of mine who is nominally a JW but who does not believe a word of it, told me about the dying words of another friend's father. This man had been a lifelong stalwart JW and reared an exemplary JW dynasty but as he died he told his super zealous son that it (the JW religion) has got it all wrong.

As for everlasting life and paradise, they've also misinterpreted that. Origen, one of the greatest Christian scholars wrote: "After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of learning or school of the spirits, in which everything they did on Earth would be made clear to them." Many near death experiences seem to sustain this, but how would anyone at death's door know one way or the other what they're facing? They would have to go and come back to know that.

The JWs believe the Greeks introduced the concept that men have spirits, but ancient Christian books like the Shepherd of Hermas completely dispel this, as do scholars like Origen and countless others. Rather than just accept it as new light and move on, they stick with their Adventist roots, which are completely wrong.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

Londo111 » Each congregation has a “talk coordinator”. Talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on Sunday. Typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit. So it would not be possible for a stranger to show up on Sunday and give a talk.
Even the content of the public talk does not originate with the one giving it. The content comes from Headquarters in New York. Basically, Watchtower gives dozens of outlines, and a speaker must select or be given one of those. While there is some room for variation, basically the speaker must deliver the points of the outline, albeit in their own words. Even circuit overseers are given outlines…although they have more freedom for variation.

In another thread, Londo and Flipper provided some fascinating nuggets on how one is chosen to dispense knowledge, and how they do it through talks. This is an enormous amount of control and I had a question.

Let's say that you've studied a topic for years and have become proficient in it. Let's say the topic revolves around the Old Testament, how we got it -- how the books of Isaiah and Jeremiah were written. And let's say you have a doctorate in the field of ancient scripture, and that you've written papers on it. You decide to do a fireside at your home and you do it as an open house. You open it to people of any faith, including fellow members of the Kingdom Hall, yet you're careful to explain you're doing it under your own auspices, and not of any church.

You don't post flyers at the KH, you do it by word of mouth.

An elder discovers you are doing this. What's he going to do? Since you're doing this yourself, are you in the clear?

Or two, let's say some members ask you to give a fireside at one of their homes. They're careful to say it's not sponsored by the Watchtower Society, but is a private fireside. Would that be permitted?

I'm curious if they would try to reel you in anyway. Some people might speak on the Adventist movement, William Miller, Ellen White and her visions, etc. It's completely legal, and there's nothing in the Bible that would be again it.

What's the story? Especially for some of you elders out there?